Why People Hate Fourth Edition
I think I’ve worked it out. D&D4 is New Star Wars.
Sure, it lacks the feel of the 1970s classic, changes the implied setting, ignores decades of established pseudo-canon, changes the foundation of how people’s supernatural powers work and is full of cheesy lines… but the fantasy swords-and-magic action is much better, and wasn’t that the point all along?
August 14th, 2008 at 1:02 am
I think you’re onto something.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:23 am
In my case I really like 4e. My problem is all the other crap WotC has done wrong. Especially the poor way that they have handled the release of what should have been a game every D&D fan was excited about. Instead they caused bad feelings and resentment. Sure there would have been a little of that from people who simply like to gripe about change of any kind, but this time the brought a lot of it on themselves.
As for the game… I like it and intend to keep playing. While I will support the actual game, I don’t think I will get behind some of the other stuff they have in store.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:25 am
BTW I am a supporter of the changing the setting aspect. I felt that everything had become too overwhelming, especially for newer players. I honestly avoided the Realms because it was just too big, there was too much back story. So I am eager to see the revamped FR setting. Though I am still a bit ticked off about Maztica being destroyed… that was just wrong.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:02 am
About half the people I know who hate Fourth Edition do so because of the way the people around them tend to foist it on them, at least as much as the mechanics…
You may have a point in the difference between the two. Of course, there’s the next question: Where does that leave the people who were looking for stuff that wasn’t “better” swords and magic action? Or at least magic items with a little bit of flavor behind them and not just Orbs of Being Bigger Than The Same Orb Five Levels Ago?
August 14th, 2008 at 3:08 am
I don’t know - 4e doesn’t have anything nearly as racist as Jar-Jar Binks or the Trade Federation guys.
And 4e doesn’t have an utterly terrible romantic subplot between two characters whose actors have no chemistry with a setup that is totally unbelievable.
And it doesn’t have 1000% more “Boba Fett” than the original.
And there isn’t anything nearly as stupid as Darth Vader being the creator of C3P0.
Nope - I’m not seeing it. 4e doesn’t have any of the stuff that made New Star Wars horrible to me at all.
But then, I like 4e quite a bit.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:13 am
I really like the speed of 4th edition. My biggest reservation was moving from a system that had a TON of material to pick from to one that is brand new with only the lonely PHB to give you options. my group is running 4th and loving it and i think that in the coming months with more source coming out it will make a big difference.
“GRRRR change is bad!!!” isnt good enough reason to hate something. esp a game
August 14th, 2008 at 5:43 am
PEOPLE don’t hate 4E D&D. *YOU* may hate it, but people do not. If everyone hated 4th Ed, then there wouldn’t be such a waiting list for the two 4E campaigns being run at out FLGS.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Well, people don’t hate the new starwars movies ether, just a small group of starwars fans does.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Not everyone likes 4th edition, either. If everyone liked 4th edition, there wouldn’t be a need (or market) for the Pathfinder RPG.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
People may think they hate 4th edition, but if so they’re misdirecting their anger.
D&D 4th is just another game that you can buy or not buy. If Green Ronin published a game I didn’t like (they haven’t yet!) - I wouldn’t buy it. There’s no emotional involvement.
The true cause of any emotion here is that with the introduction of 4th, comes the end of WotC’s support of the great product line that was D&D 3.X. To me that’s a little bit sad.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Careful! No flame wars! Both editions suck equally. For different reasons. Those particular reasons are what define the issue.
Personally, I’ll die before tossing my older editions. 4E isn’t a mature system by any stretch of the imagination. There are too few products, a big missing hole in the core classes, and the THUD of errata (loads and loads of it in only 2 months)that makes one wonder what WotC’s idea of “playtesting” actually involved.
As opposed to 3.5’s sometimes anal complexity. Arduous prep times, and literal mountain of splatbooks that seem to drown some in a sea of munchkinism.
4E is a different type of game. We can go on and on about gaminst vs. simulationist drek, or even the WoW with dice junk. What it all boils down to is a shift to a different gaming experience. Some people REALLY liked the tactical stuff, and felt forced to roleplay. Some people disliked the hours of prep time. Everyone’s right!
Play the game you like. If 4E sucks, you don’t have to justify it any more than the reasons you don’t play F.A.T.A.L. or Blue rose or Zombie strippers from mars. It just doesn’t matter.
Relax folks…you are all right this time :)
August 14th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Nope, I hate 4e because of the outrageous licenses for 3rd-party publishers. The rules changes seem reasonable enough.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I think “hate” is the wrong word. I think the word, as a third party publisher, is “disappointed”. Just about everything about 4th Ed has been a disappointment. From the GSL to Gleemax to the first announcement of 4th Edition to even not actually releasing it at Gen Con. I am disappointed with the whole thing, from botton to top.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Speaking of Pathfinder, so many people have downloaded the Beta version of the rules set as it’s launched today their servers crashed under the load.
August 14th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
I’m beginning to think Donny the DM is my long lost twin that doesn’t exist or vice versa. Our opinions, though different in some ways, are way to similar.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:33 am
I hate 4th edition because the books sold out so fast they were hard to get. And I hate how easy it is to prepare games and run monsters - now I have time left to spend with my kid - what’s up with that. I also hate how it has excited all kinds of new players and rejuvenated my gaming group. That really sucks.
Oh wait, I guess those aren’t really good reasons.
What I do enjoy is the people who hate the game so much that they blog about how everyone hates it, knowing deep down that if their posts are going to be shallow, they’d better talk about 4E since that’s what everyone’s interested in. Oh, and if you can tie it in with Star Wars - well what geeky patron of RPG blogs could resist that? :)
August 22nd, 2008 at 9:34 am
To say no one hates forth addition would be wrong i have the core set .
my biggest complaint was that the core classes that should have been there were not .
it seemed rushed and incomplete and the new powers per day per encounter per second honestly it lakes the feel of d&D and gives me the feel that im playing a table top mmo if i wanted a system that had an mmo feel id play warcraft. i have a play group of 40 people we played the core system for 2 months to give it a try and 38 of the 40 people dint like it and expressed a fear of not being able to find any good material after 4th rolled out in full swing. i think ive found a place and if not my group will muddle threw with the vast 3.0 and 3.5 material we already have 3.0 and 3.5 made great improvements to d&d 4th simply made us old guys who have played since we bought the very first addition in the cardboard box set a little sick to our tummy’s well good luck which ever edition you play but i hope they support still those players who love the game and hate fourth i truly do hate it can i cast a spell can i cast it to day can i cast it tomorrow will i cast a spell do i have a spell at all this encounter bah it wasn’t broken just needed tweaked boo 4th addition
August 25th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
I’m really not sure how people get confused with how to use the new at-will, encounter and daily powers, like craft247.
I recently got married, and my wife is a huge fantasy lover. She liked the idea of D&D but was really put out by 3.5. She rolled a magic user, and had a hard time perusing through the big long list of spells, deciding which ones she wanted, and then was sorely disappointed. The first time, she burned through them all in one fight. The second session, she held back, sorely afraid of using her spells because she wanted to use them at the most effective time. The third session, she just gave up entirely and fell asleep on the couch 30 minutes into the game. We decided maybe she should roll a fighter character if she felt unproductive in battles, but she became very bored with that as well, as all she did was run around and say “I swing my axe,” ad nauseum over and over again.
When 4th edition came out, we decided to give it a whirl and she loved it. She rolled a warlock and the fact that she could cast Eldritch blast, which dealt 1d10 damage whenever she wanted to was a very good thing. When she found out though that she could still save some big spells for a cinematic finish with her encounters and dailies, she finally felt like a contributing member of the party. Before, she would sulk in the shadows, wait until she could cast her acid orb spell and deal a measly 1d4 damage, while everyone else around her was doing at least 1d6 if not more, then wonder if she’s even needed in the party and fall asleep. Much better this time around. Every class is unique and has something solid to contribute to the party.
Certainly this edition isn’t for everyone, but I feel 4th edition simplified the powers, not complicated them. I mean, c’mon. Having to choose every single one of your spells before the beginning of the day without knowing what you’re going to run into? Having to discern down to the exact number of utility, healing and damage spells you will use in the course of the day? How is that NOT complicated?
For the hardcore players who love coming up with ingenious ways to use Featherfall or Grease in a battle, more power to you. It’s not a wrong way to play by any means. But as for me and my house, we’ll be playing 4th edition.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:44 am
I hadn’t played D&D in about 15 years, and on a whim after reading that 4E came out, I figured I’d buy the initial set of three books. I was quite surprised how much I loved the rules. When I last played we used 1E AD&D rules - mainly because our DM felt the 2E rules were too complicated. But I *hated* those books - to me they were so confusing, and the DM Manual wasn’t helpful to me at all when I finally chose to DM. But with 4E I loved not only the presentation style, but the DM Guide was so useful - lots of great knowledge. Heck, even the sample adventure and associated town description is great in the DM Guide - if not just for a great sample of starting your own world and campaign setting design. Additionally, I like all the “fluff” provided in the 4E Monster Manual, not only in hooks to adventures in monster descriptions and lore, but also sample monster groups.
Granted, I basically skipped 2E and 3E altogether - so I’ve never read those rules and seen if they’ve been streamlined and grown over the 90’s and early 2000’s, but from my experience with 1E I think 4E is awesome! Sure, there are some flaws - I agree with wanting more character types and races in the Player’s Manual and this is only made worse by the Player’s Manual 2 coming out months from now. But, I’m planning on purchasing most of the upcoming books as well.
And since the D20 Star Wars was mentioned. due to the “fun” I’ve had of reading through the new D&D stuff, I figured I’d pick up the newer D20 Star Wars stuff, too. I have a lot of the old WEG D6 Star Wars, but it might be nice to get the newer D20 stuff. I’ve thumbed through them at the bookstore, and while it suffers from some of the same short comings (like I wish I had *more* info in the initial book set), it might be nice to have another genre that uses the same overall rule-set that my gaming group can play.
Finally, I must say the prices of these books are very reasonable, with the caveat that I’ve been purchasing these off of Amazon. I can’t believe I’m getting these books for nearly the same price, if not cheaper, than what I paid for some of my RPG books back in the late 80’s, early 90’s. The List Price is obviously much higher, but many places I’ve looked are selling them at a much discounted price (and I settled on Amazon due to the free shipping). I can get what amounts to a good set of three books to kick off some fun nights of RPG-ing with my gaming group for around $60, it’s not much more than a good boardgame and way less than getting into a miniature game.
August 26th, 2008 at 10:58 am
This post/rant about sums up my position:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16528911&postcount=31
August 27th, 2008 at 12:12 am
4th ed is bull it completly destroyed several races, dummed down the good the bad and the ugly and finaly just plane killed of any story lines that already made the game…THE GAME! i for one hate 4th with such vengence that im thinking of getting out of D&D for good!
it simply not right to old time gamers that grew up on 2-3.5 ed, wath the hell is wrong with having a well made and difined world for D&D huh? the tiefling looks like he was beaten with the whole ugly tree and the cultures that were such a part of the game are completly screwed now!
August 27th, 2008 at 12:15 am
so as for your “i think its great”
(Expilit coment) and the hourse u came in on
August 30th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
I do not dig out my books and spend hours writing up intricately plotted adventures, fleshing out NPCs, and designing unique encounters to play “World of Dungeons and Dragons.” 35 Skills + knowledge skills are reduced to 17 skills and knowledge skills. (cheating a bit, since ‘History, Religion, and Dungeoneering’ are all now considered regular skills for some reason… so with that in mind, the reduction is actually to 14 skills + knowledge skills.’ The core classes are designed to fit specific party roles and are labeled as such. (Defender, Striker, and Leader? Why not be honest and write out “Tank, DPS, and Healer?”) The DMG actually advises DM’s to not bother fleshing out NPCs because they’re only important insofar as they get the players to the next encounter. Why does that bother me? Put little yellow exclamation points over their heads in the game artwork, and maybe it’ll click. Spellcasters get virtually no variety in choosing spells, especially the poor warlocks. (and isn’t *that* class a blatant rip off?) So you’re an infernal warlock? I guess you’re taking Hellish Rebuke/Eldritch Blast at level 1, and Fiery Bolt at level 3, and Iron Spike of Dis at level 9… so much for choices.
The death of the Great Wheel, the changed alignment system, and the race re-arrangement I can swallow.
But the dumbing down of the game into formulaic, MMORPG inspired raids of loosely linked combat encounters has killed it for me. If I wanted that kind of experience, I’d play WOW, where I can play whenever I want, finding a gaming group isn’t a problem, and there’s a sound-track.
Everyone I know who plays feels the same way, and are hoarding their old books because the new D&D is dead to us.
September 2nd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Actually, I hate 4E because, flat out, it doesn’t allow me to build the characters I want. In 3E you could come up with any character concept that pleased you — a “dirt mage,” a fighter “armed” with two shields, a rogue focused entirely on stealth and information-gathering, etc. — and then find a way to make it playable with spell selection, feats, skills, etc. 4E has only a fraction of that flexibility. In 3E you could create and then build a character, a “role” to “play.” In 4E the best you can do is make a build and then try to infuse some character into it… but the rulebook itself is working against you. “You’re not Joe the Obsessive Monk,” it says; “You’re Joe the defender-type unit.” Instead of playing roles, you fulfill combat functions.
I’m glad you like the combat, but I want to, you know, play a roleplaying game, not a ridiculously overpriced tactical game. I can get a tactical game on my computer for $20 or less.
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
You’ve certainly got a lot of comments! And they just keep coming. Here, let me add to the slow flood. :)
In many ways 4e is an improvement on 3.x. There were certainly a lot of problems with the 3rd edition, and 4e specifically targeted a lot of them: long prep times, the explosion of splat books, convoluted rules for any combat action other than “I swing”, and the baroque setting canon.
Why people dislike/hate/are disappointed is because how it fixed those wasn’t what they wanted. A lot of people dislike it who started into D&D with 3.x do because it’s not as rich a system. People who dislike it who started with 2e or earlier (which is all very much the same, system-wise, until you get to OD&D) dislike it for many more reasons. The trouble is that 4e fixes 3.x, but it’s a reaction to the problems of 3.x only and it fails to continue what people loved from earlier editions.
My biggest problem with 4e (and this is speaking as a DM who enthusiastically started a new campaign after buying the gift set) is that it fundamentally alters the player’s relationship to the fiction of the game. Bluntly, 4e made the fiction not matter. This is a huge departure from any previous D&D. It once was the case that players would look at the fiction and have to think “what makes sense for my character to do now?” and they’d declare an action. This action wouldn’t always be phrased in mechanics, but could just be “I throw myself through the tavern window and try to come up with my sword out”. The DM would then look at the fiction and make a ruling (not consult a rule) as to whether they can do that, and how it’s going to get resolved.
In 4e, you can’t do this. That example action must be broken down into movement during combat. A player can’t make a fictional declaration and know that it can be translated into game terms. They need to know the specific movement actions that are available to them, and speak in game terms. Before anyone protests that earlier D&D had to do this, no, it didn’t. Most 2e and 1e games relied on this sort of really quick declaration-resolution non-system, where the players say “I do this” and the DM says “Okay” or “Okay, roll this”.
Ironically, 4e made me want to play and run 1st edition because of this feature of the new rules. So now I’m running a game of that, doing it much better than when I was 13, and my 4e books are on the shelf.
This is already too long. For more elucidation on this idea, and just how much 4e breaks the connection between fiction and mechanics, see Talking in rule terms rather than adventure terms at the RPGsite, and Dissociated Mechanics by Jason Alexander.
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I hate 4th edition Hero Quest.. I mean Magic the Gathering minature game.. No, I mean WOW, .. wait, wait, its called D&D. Sorry, I almost forgot the name. Anyways I hate this new edition. To prove that it’s not “Change” that I hate, I was a huge fan of 2nd edition and original skeptical of 3rd edition but I fell in love with it hours after buying the 3rd edition PHB!
September 4th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Honestly, I dig 4th edition thus far. I just can’t wait until there is more source material for it. Currently I am not that interested in playing a 4th ed game, seeing as the campaigns I run are really reliant on the various 3.5 sourcebooks available. I currently play a game in the FR 4th ed world, and it’s pretty cool, but the reality is that at the moment, there isn’t too much material for this system quite yet. id’ homebrew some content, but I always seem to prefer WotC’s stuff over mine.
Cheers.
September 4th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
However, I hasten to add, that the rules set and the class consolidation is aimed at casual players, not hardcore rpgamers like myself. Adopting the combat system is excellent, however. While I have to agree with Virgil’s assessment, it bears mentioning that they wanted to appeal to the casual gamer, so that they didn’t have to spend 3 hours creating a character because they don’t want to fully absorb every rule.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:41 am
Fourth edition is the first step of dumbing the game down into a table top WOW game.
Examples:
Healing surge - “Your first aid is now 226…” All characters can heal themselves through will power? Why not just call it runecloth or neatherweave bandages and
move on.
Magic items ~ Now refered to hand slot, head slot… etc. items… Sound familiar?
Classes ~ All druids, monks, and barbarians dissapeared in the last .5 of an upgrade? Orcs, and gnomes similarly got the shaft.
Versitle ~ Ted up above was complaining that his wife couldn’t understand 3ed and ended up running around swinging an axe cause it was simple enough for her, what’s
the difference now Ted that she’s running around casting the same at will spell all of the time? As a DM or a player I’m going to get bored to death of
hearing or saying. “I cast magic missle.” for the 20th time during that single encounter. Or I cast fireball and regardless of level it does 3d6… So
much like WOW you keep pumping out the same spell… At least on my computer I have a hot key for it.
I’ve been playing for over 15 years and have seen the update from 2e to 3e, to 3.5e. Fourth edition while bringing some improvements to the game has done more to ruin the rpg by turning it into a what’s hot now market item. I won’t be handing over my money for 4th ed and in fact will look to buy an extra 3.5ed guide as a back up incase I have new players come along. The only people that I have found to like the game are the less imaginative ones who want their character completely defined for them so they don’t have to think.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:49 am
“I hate 4th edition Hero Quest.. I mean Magic the Gathering minature game.. No, I mean WOW, .. wait, wait, its called D&D. Sorry, I almost forgot the name. Anyways I hate this new edition. To prove that it’s not “Change” that I hate, I was a huge fan of 2nd edition and original skeptical of 3rd edition but I fell in love with it hours after buying the 3rd edition PHB!”
John,you truly said it all.THe new edition is a game based on d20 system,NOT a dungeons and dragons game.
I’m a rpg gamer dating from 2nd edition too,and i also enjoyed the 3 and 3,5 system.
But 4th…AWh…
September 26th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
What do I have against 4th Edition?
Simplifying it would have been one thing. But it’s oversimplified—I’d almost go so far as to say “dumbed down.”
The setting and cosmology changes were completely unneccessary.
The Monster Manual seems somehow incomplete without the obligatory brief descriptions of each creature.
And did I mention that it’s been “Blizzed”? Complete with tieflings that look like dra…ahem, eredar?
October 2nd, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I have to say I fail to see the argument that D&D 4th edition was “oversimplified”. I think the game has improved considerably in that I don’t have to play a wizard now just to have some variety in combat. The classes have a lot more actions to do each round rather just “swinging” one’s sword. Also, actions that had draconian mechanisms for executing (grapple, for one) have been clarified.
I also enjoy the monsters in the game. Each encounter against a creature I haven’t fought before (whether high level or low) has special attacks that make combats more exciting. If anything, I would say most low-level combat in 3.5 was rather boring and, dare I say it–”dumbed down”– in terms of monsters just using some futile attack round after round. Putting on my DM hat for a second, getting rid of the crazy CR system for designing encounters was a major plus. I also like how traps and terrain are factored into the difficulty level of the counter.
I have to admit, I was never fond of combat in 3.5 and had to rely on roleplaying for my enjoyment of the game (which is how it should be). Now, while I still enjoy roleplaying, I also enjoy combat as well.
October 15th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I actually like 4th edition. We play it almost every sunday and my dwarf is yelling alot and hitting stuff.
But…it just isn’t a role playing game any more. It’s all tactics, every single little aspect of it.
I think our DM is doing a good job setting up encounters for us, but I don’t think I could ever DM it myself. It is just to sad, working with such a bleak shadow of other games.
It hasn’t made me want to go back to 3.x though. No.
It has made me want to go back to Earth Dawn. Do you remember that system? It is everything that is good with 4th ed, and everything that is good with 3rd ed done better.
Bybye WotC. Hello RedBrick limited.
October 28th, 2008 at 12:03 am
For me it is still 2e. Though I liked things about 3e. I just thought 3e went hp crazy and presitge class crazy. I really don’t like 4e. The magic system is blah.
November 15th, 2008 at 6:57 am
I like 4th as a boardgame. As a RPG, nope, not at all.
I hate 4th Edition because there are certain aspect of the game that I enjoyed was removed, things that was in all the editions previous. These so call imperfection made it ‘D&D’ for me and my friends. The so called “improvements” made it a different game. Some changes where just insane, such as Dragonborn and Teiflings as standard races. Absolutely made no sense in-game. Why not make a race call Demi-God?
It’s like waking up and finding out that you’re adopted.
November 16th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I haven’t played so I can’t say I hate it. Some of what my friends who have played though makes me think I would not enjoy it. I will say it was totally unnecessary. There was nothing wrong with 3.5. It seems like someone decided it would be cheaper to pay a bunch of statisticians to come up with a new game rather than pay writers to create new content. Of course that is all pure speculation.